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@jon They don't switch, they create another account and stay on X. Point aside, bluesky's privacy terms suck, the only thing that saves is mastodon.

@Flaky , so you have never experienced that the algorithm for these Big Tech sites is changed over time?

Anyone that was on Facebook during the early days and Twitter as well will remember a time where the content was just the people you followed and then that changed. That is what the algorithms are for. Just remember that.

@tor As another anecdote to your reply: I know of two Eurovision feeds on Bluesky - one essentially catches everything mentioning the song contest on the firehose, while another is more curated and selective.

Another thing to keep in mind with Bluesky is that the algorithmic feeds are absolutely optional. They give you a "Discover" feed to start with (as part of the new user onboarding process) but you're able remove that and put your own preferred feeds on there. You're not locked into one algorithm.

@jon

@jon I do get you're coming from, and I do agree, but on Bluesky, there is not one algorithm that can define your experience there (https://bsky.app/feeds), so it's hard to paint every feed on there with the same paintbrush even in the worst case scenario that an engagement-based algorithm prioritises undesirable content.

Ultimately, whether you favor algorithms or not really is subjective. I just don't want Bluesky to be lumped in the same group, since it works quite differently to Threads and Mastodon. (I've tried getting my friends onto fedi, and failed, they found it too confusing.)

@tor

@Flaky @tor

My concern is that these guys have a history of changing the algorithm once they get going. The investors they have does not give me any good feeling either.

Both Bluesky and Threads are, I guess, better than Twitter today, but the bar is not set high by that. I would like us to strive for excellence and then the Fediverse is, IMHO, the solution.

@jon The investors are eyebrow-raising, but I'm not overly concerned, as long as Bluesky stays on the path they've promised. It's an uncertainty, but one I personally don't mind.

If your concerns are from its roots as a Twitter/Dorsey project, it should be known Jack Dorsey is gone and Mike Masnick (for those OOTL: Techdirt founder) has taken his place. The inventor of XMPP has also been on Bluesky's board for as long as it's been around, too, to help nurture their protocol.

(IMO I think one thing fedi can improve on is reducing the friction associated with joining. I've seen that mentioned frequently as a major barrier, amongst others.)

@tor

@Flaky @tor

I guess the difference we have is really about what will happen in the future. I just do not trust yet another company owned, proprietary solution. They all started nice.

I like things based on open standards, which the Fediverse is.

I agree that it could be made easier to join. We have made it easier for Vivaldi users by re-using our logins. Others could do the same, such as universities and institutions.

Then it is a question of filling up the initial feed. That would be easy for a university or institution as well. You would automatically follow all relevant courses, the university and the like. I think it could work quite well as an addition to email.

@jon @Flaky Without feigning any specialist knowledge on neither social media algorithms nor social network design it appears that interfaces of the type Bluesky and (to some extent) Twitter, which seems to form the coding ground of Bluesky, are more accessible to novice users that more complex platforms like Matodon/the fediverse.

1/n

@jon @Flaky People ask what the difference is between Mastodon and the fediverse, if the latter can run on a completely different interface, and if it would be possible for a commercial operator to create an app or interface that could run on top of the fediverse, potentially making it more accessible, but also amenable to financial profitability.

2/n

@jon @Flaky Re: the latter, while Bluesky doesn't feature advertising today its structure of governance and operability makes this a very likely future step for that platform. Less so for the fediverse (with the caveat above). What about handling bots and unwanted behaviour, is this something a distributed network will be able to cope with? What seems clear is that even for experienced users of this platform the threshold for novices is too high, creating an effective barrier for newcomers.

3/n

@jon @Flaky How should we deal with these issues?

In any case, thank you for an interesting discussion that seems possible only here. Hang in there!

4/4

@tor @jon From someone who used fedi for a bit (and Bluesky) I think I can chime in on this. I feel fedi focuses too much on decentralisation that user experience takes a step back. For example, someone I know had issues with Mastodon not sending DMs (private mentions) to the recipients and he doesn’t know why. Bluesky knew from the beginning that UX needs to take hold before the protocol stuff.

This is a really good post that summarises the issues with Mastodon that Bluesky users had (from 2023):
https://erinkissane.com/mastodon-is-easy-and-fun-except-when-it-isnt

Bluesky is also trying a different approach to decentralisation, with portable identities hosted on a Personal Data Server, which I think solves the issue of finding the right instance (which is harder than people think especially since it shapes the posts you see) while allowing for decentralisation (you can move your account to another server without losing data). I think something like this is happening in AP (“nomadic identities”) but I’m not sure.

@tor @jon On another note, I feel some of the issues that pervade fedi are cultural. People have issues with corporate social media’s handling of trust and safety, and rightfully so, but I feel they trust community based moderation less, as it can be even more biased than corporate SM who at least trains their T&S staff and it dictates who you’re allowed to interact with.

It doesn’t help when instances with wildly different rules federate, a common example being the discourse surrounding alt text in media, and it can result in petty squabbles or explode into drama. It’s comparable to the power mod dramas that pervaded classic forums.

Ironically, that sorta thing actually makes me recommend bigger, corporate run or organisation-run fediverse instances like Mastodon.social or Vivaldi Social.

@Flaky @jon This is precisely the reason a universally oriented social network should be run by, of, and for the people.